An Interview with Pamela Wise
Conducted by Jeff Solomon on May 9, 2000 as part of Dr. Karlton E. Hester's course AS&RC489: African American Musical Innovators (Cornell University) and the 9th Annual Cornell University "Jazz" Festival.
1.) How would you define a musical innovator? Is innovation an important goal in African-American music today?
A musical innovator is one (after developing and working his/her craft) who takes their artistic expressions and create a new musical style within a certain genre of music. The music reflects a way of life of the people. In some instances, especially in ethnic groups, the music may carry an important message that people may often miss if they do not listen closely. Innovation is important for people who make a living with their art. Some people who are involved in art or music as a hobby may not be concerned about being innovative.
2.) How do you feel about the term "jazz?"
I don’t feel comfortable with the term "Jazz". The word "Jazz" comes from a French word meaning "jiving around" and Jazz music is far from just jiving around. The music is highly intellectual and one must be skilled in their craft to play it. Today, you have Be Bop Jazz, straight ahead Jazz, smooth Jazz etc... One could be miseducated about the history of this great American art form.
3.) In our class, we have learned that the roots of African-American music have a lot to do with musical protest. Do you believe that "jazz" and other African-American music forms are still forms of protest?
Again, the music reflects the lives and times of the people. The protests weren’t all about music. Be bop Jazz stemmed from times of great racial flaws in our society. Most whites didn’t allow Blacks in their bands. So Black musicians got together and created their own style--taking tunes by white composers and super imposing our own melodies and improvising. That is what created Be Bop. Of course, the music was so hip that there were a lot of Whites who wanted to learn it too which helped bridge the racial tension among the musicians, but not in the market place. In the 60’s, Blacks were greatly involved in the civil rights movement, demanding respect in society and trying to learn and connect with our African roots. The Jazz music of the 60’s reflected these trying and tension times for Blacks. During the 70’s Jazz music was taking another turn with the times--things kind of eased up on the civil rights and people were a little more at ease. Freddie Hubbard, Herbie Hancock created some great music and also you had the music of Earth, Wind and Fire, Marvin Gaye speaking about "save the children" etc. (as you can see now, people weren’t really listening to their messages) Even now, music reflects the times that people are in. Especially the music from the rappers.
4.) There is a great difference between the "jazz" scene of the 1940’s and 50’s and the scene of today. How would you describe the scene today? What is the importance of "jazz" in the mainstream culture of today?
I don’t really think that there is much of a Jazz scene today. If more folks were buying Jazz and if it was widely promoted by the mass media like other musical forms there would be more a scene. Unfortunately the mainstream media and recording companies don’t really invest very much in Jazz. However, there are more educational institutions that have Jazz Programs.
5.) Throughout the semester, we have learned of numerous instances in which critics fail to understand the importance of innovators such as John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, and Miles Davis. Do you find present- day critics to have a more welcoming attitude towards musical experimentation? How do the opinions of critics affect you as musician?
Critics are just avenues of promotion. Whether they say something something or good or bad about, it doesn’t really matter. If you get the right ones in the mainstream media talking about you, you stand a greater chance of working on an international level. I believe this is the way John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman and Miles Davis felt. These were some of the most popular musicians of our times. They knew how to keep the media buzzing by being controversial at times and musically radical, therefore gaining more popularity.
6.) Is the presence of women in the African-American musical world growing or diminishing?
I believe the presence of African American women in the music business is growing, but not necessarily in the field of Jazz. I think it is because of a lack of exposure to young women, not seeing and hearing enough role models of other Black women playing Jazz.
7.) Just last week, the Juilliard School of Music announced that it would form a Jazz Studies program. How important do you think these programs like these are to students on the college and high school level? What do you think these programs should include?
I think Jazz studies programs are of the utmost importance. After all, it is America’s true art form. As I mentioned earlier, music reflects they ways and lives of the people.
8.) If you could travel forward in time twenty years and flip on a jazz radio station (if those few stations out there still exist in twenty years!), what would you expect to hear?
20 years from now, I believe I will still hear the classic Jazz standards on the radio because most forms of Jazz never gets old. You can turn on the radio now and still hear the Jazz classics from the 1930’s and 40’s. Many of the popular rhythm and blues artists like the Temptations and Lauryn Hill from the world of hip hop are covering some of the Jazz classics. We will still hear the great music of Duke Ellington and many others.
Interviewer's note's on Pamela Wise Interview
In reading Arthur Taylor’s Notes and Tones at the beginning of the semester, I found it interesting to learn that many of the "Jazz" musicians interviewed shared similar beliefs on the importance of innovation, the nature of the "Jazz" scene, the importance of critics, and other important musical issues. My email interview with Pamela Wise showed that a sharing of beliefs still continues between musicians who have dedicated their life to the art of the "Jazz" genres. In many ways, her thoughts on modern musical issues may reflect how musicians like Dizzy Gillespie, Ron Carter, or the many other players interviewed in Notes and Tones would have responded to these issues thirty years after Notes and Tones. This is not to say that Pamela Wise is not an individual thinker; on the contrary, her views are unique, but the themes in her responses are similar to those of the other musicians because the issues that arose in the world of those musicians still exist today.
Pamela Wise’s main theory concerning African- African music is that it "reflects the lives and times of the people." This theme carries through all of her responses in the interview, and it reflects the opinions of other musicians interviewed in Notes and Tones. When asked to define an innovator, Ms. Wise said that an innovator is a musician who creates a new style with a certain genre of music, and that innovation is a goal primarily for those who build their lives in music, as opposed to musical hobbyists. Ms. Wise and the musicians in Notes and Tones both emphasize that a player must be skilled and developed in his craft in order to and innovate and form a singular musical style. According to Ms. Wise, innovators reflect the lives of the people by filling their music with personal messages that may not be heard if listeners unless pay close attention. When thinking of personal messages in the music of African-American innovators, John Coltrane’s "Alabama" comes to mind.
Like Ron Carter in Notes and Tones, Ms. Wise is very concerned with correctly educating people on this "great American art form." Again reflecting the opinions of the Notes and Tones interviewees, Ms. Wise dislikes the term "Jazz," particularly because it leads to miseducation. She believes that there are too many different kinds of music ("Bebop Jazz, Straight Ahead Jazz, Smooth Jazz") to be placed under this generic label. Furthermore, the label itself is offensive, as Ms. Wise shows by recalling the word’s French origin, as a term for "jiving around." She feels that this music is "far from just jiving around. [It] is highly intellectual and one must be skilled in their craft to play it." When asked about the role of protest in music, Ms. Wise continues speaking out about education, saying that "Again, the music reflects the lives and times of the people. The protests weren’t all about music." She then explains how Bebop developed out of African musicians protesting against being kept out of white bands, and she continues to explain the history behind the developments in African-American music for every decade following the Bebop era, into the present. Ms. Wise believes that, in the present, rap musicians are going to the greatest lengths to reflect the lives of the people.
Ms. Wise gave a unique insight into modern musical issues as the interview questions delved into subjects of the present times. I feel that these questions would have been answered in a similar fashion by the Notes and Tones interviewees, if they were interviewed now, after the social developments of the last thirty years. First, I asked Ms. Wise to comment on the "Jazz" scene today. Reflecting a sentiment present in our in-class discussions on this subject, Ms. Wise commented that she does not feel the presence of any scene at all, and this is due to the media’s extremely small investment in this music. It seems as though the trend of ignoring Afrocentric music in favor of Eurocentric pop that began in the 60’s has continued to tragic lengths in the present. However, Ms. Wise points out that, on the positive side, there are more institutions set up in the United States for Jazz Studies now than there were thirty years ago. In this vein, I cited the Juilliard School’s recent decision to institute a Jazz Studies major, and I asked her to comment on the importance of these programs. She feels that they are of the utmost importance in today’s educational system. "After all," she says, "it is America’s true art form."
Continuing in the subjects of present times, I asked Ms. Wise about the role of women in the African- American musical world. Ms. Wise commented that the role of women is growing, but not necessarily in Jazz. She feels that that women today are not encouraged to study "Jazz" due to a lack of exposure to female "Jazz" role models. I believe that this lack of exposure has been a trend since the decline of female-led bands, such as the ensembles headed by Billie Holiday. Nowadays, women are much more inclined to listen to modern rhythm-and-blues singers such as Macy Gray, Lauryn Hill, and Erykah Badu than to the wonderful but under-publicized Cassandra Wilson. I also asked Ms. Wise to comment on what she expects to hear on "Jazz" radio stations twenty years from now. Ms. Wise responded that "most forms of Jazz never get old," and that she expects to hear standards, which have been recorded consistently for decades. She expects to hear standards, as well as the works of Duke Ellington and other innovators whose works have already been embraced by the general public. I find it optimistic, but not at all unrealistic, on her part to believe that this music will still exist on the airwaves in twenty years, and I agree with her that will live on forever. In a way, I wish that she would have added some of the more radical innovators to her list, who have not yet been fully recognized and appreciated on a large scale (such as Albert Ayler, the later works of John Coltrane, and Cecil Taylor), but I guess this would be wishful thinking. Hopefully, these innovators will be embraced by all listeners in the future.
Finally, I asked her to comment on the role of critics in the world of "Jazz." Like the Notes and Tones interviewees, Ms. Wise believes that critics exist solely for the purpose of promotion. The most interesting part of Ms. Wise’s comments on this issue was her opinion that the "Jazz" innovators of the past recognized this, and often used the promotional role of the critics for their own advancement, creating controversy in the critical world to gain international publicity. This comment gives a lot of insight into the business minds of musicians like Coltrane and Ornette Coleman, and it makes a point about musical critics that was not touched upon in this way by the musicians interviewed thirty years ago. I believe that those musicians definitely felt this way, but that they did not speak out about it, in order to sustain this interesting relationship between musician and critic/promoter. They must have believed that any publicity, whether positive or negative, is good publicity, and this explains why many of them did not become too frustrated when critics failed to understand their work. The critics’ misunderstanding and condemnation only helped them to gain exposure. This insight, along with all of Ms. Wise’s other interesting points of view, reflect the ideological bond between "Jazz" musicians concerning their role in society, as can be seen by comparing her views with those presented in Notes and Tones. The years passed between the older interviews and this one give her a new perspective on the issues of education and the "Jazz" scene, but the ideological bond is still present. My interview with Pamela Wise helped me to further understand many of the important issues surrounding African-American music.
Living Encyclopedia
of Global African Music
Received: April 2000
Posted: July 2002